Santa Lucia (Genos 2) - and a look at HARMONY

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Santa Lucia (Genos 2) - and a look at HARMONY

Postby JamesT3 » 12 May 2024 17:04

I'm in a nostalgic sentimental mood!

This is a number I learned from listening to the late great Mario Lanza in my home in the late sixties to early seventies. His music was often being played in our house. And often some of his great movies were on tv then!

This is Santa Lucia of the great Enrico Caruso. Performed on Genos 2.



Santa Lucia (keyboard settings)

Style: Free play Ethereal voices
110bpm
Multi pad: Harp Arpeggio (optional)

Registration voices:

LH New atmosphere
RH 1 Cinematic grand
RH 2 Cinematic grand - Felt piano
RH 3 Felt piano - CFX Ambient grand
RH 4 Cinematic grand - CFX 2 octaves
RH 5 Seattle lush strings - Kino strings Trem Vc
RH 6 Seattle spiccato - Kino strings Trem Vc
RH 7 Cinematic grand
RH 8 Cinematic grand - Film harmonic warm
RH 9 Cinematic grand - CFX 2 octaves
RH 10 Cunematic grand - Film harmonic warm

Best wishes

James.
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Re: Santa Lucia (Genos 2)

Postby dentyr » 13 May 2024 09:26

Your left hand chords are all wrong. You missed the A chord and the D chord which lead you down. Get the sheet script for the harmony. Thanks for posting anyway. Den.
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Re: Santa Lucia (Genos 2)

Postby JamesT3 » 13 May 2024 11:48

Hello Den,

Many thanks for your comments. I take on board what you pointed out. Unfortunately I don’t read music and only play entirely by ear. So I can only play what sounds right to me, but i do appreciate your input as this helps me to dig deeper into any errors. That’s one of the things I enjoy about forums like this as we can all learn so much from each other.

Best wishes

James.
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Re: Santa Lucia (Genos 2)

Postby dentyr » 14 May 2024 00:13

Hello James. Thank you for replying to my post. However, I would like to offer some advice? The human voice is mono, it has no harmony. So to get the melody, if you can pick it out from what someone purports to sing, then that’s OK; but the LEFT hand is the harmony. Without the correct chords then you have what I call pancake music. What you want is SOUP-A music. Get the sheet music and look at the chords written. Generally C, G7 and F. Most music follows the standard chord progressions as per the circle of fifths. All the chords are shown on your Genos. Go to Menu 2 touch the chord tutor and they are all there. It does not take long to get the chords for most music as there are only 3 or maybe 4 chords in the whole piece. Of course this does not apply to more advance scripts.
So, play your chords counting the bars and then put your melody onto that.

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These are the chord locations.
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Re: Santa Lucia (Genos 2)

Postby Hugh-AR » 30 May 2024 18:01

Now let's not be too hasty with this 'harmony' thing! There are songs that have been sung with basic harmony that others have picked up ... and put in harmony of their own. This can transform how a song sounds, snd make it more interesting to listen to. In this case, what James has played (by ear) is exactly as it should sound .. if you are basing it on an original version.

Here below is the song sung by Enrico Caruso:


Listening to this (by ear) .. the harmony is exactly as James has played it. Nowhere does Caruso put in that A7 and D7 to G7 to C.

Now take another version .. Santa Lucia sung by Andrea Bocelli.


Now listening to this version (by ear), the harmony in the first part of the song is exactly the same as the above (as James has played it). But in the very next bit of the song (where he sings that same melody) the harmony has definitely changed .. and one can hear those chords Den mentions.

Here's another version, by Dean Martin and Marguerite Piazza.


Again, in this version, just the basic chords .. all the way through.

And what does Mario Lanza do?


Now this is a different kettle of fish! Mario Lanza has an orchestra that wants to be heard, and is forming a major part of what you are listening to. And this orchestra is playing that harmony Den is talking about .. and even emphasising that harmony so we couldn't possibly miss it. And what a difference this makes!

So James, what I will say is .. if you can, listen to several versions of a song .. listening in particular to the harmony. As you 'play by ear' (as I do) you will hear that harmony and be able to find chords to make it sound really interesting. Maybe even put in harmony of your own which will change the character of the piece (hopefully for the better!).

Hugh
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Re: Santa Lucia (Genos 2)

Postby Hugh-AR » 02 Jun 2024 01:25

I have looked for the sheet music for Santa Lucia, and so far have only managed to come up with this .. which only has the basic chords and does not show any of the chords that Den was talking about.

Do a right-click to open this up in a New Tab.
https://app.box.com/s/ybdzzfmmzuw8x4bzwrvll8tisyfdha0p

Which brings me on to say that any sheet music you have is only one person's interpretation of the piece (unless you have the full score by the original composer), and this may or may not contain the harmony and those little counter melodies you can hear in a recording.

Take another example of something which we all know well, where the harmonies have been changed to get a different sound. One is not 'better' than another .. just different.

God Save the King (or Queen) .. the National Anthem.

You can't get more back to basics than in this version. Listen in particular to the harmony in the second part of the music. It's all playing 'basic chords'.

God Save The Queen ~ BBC Symphony Orchestra ~ HMV 102 Gramophone ~ HMV 78rpm



Then there is the Henry Wood arrangement which they played for the Last Night of the Proms for several years. I have had a go at playing this with the 'Henry Wood harmonies' on my AR80 organ. Listen in particular to the harmony in the second part of the song.



If you can't hear the difference in harmony, then really, what you are listening to is the melody .. and the harmony doesn't have much bearing on your perception of the music.

Hugh
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Re: Santa Lucia (Genos 2)

Postby dentyr » 02 Jun 2024 11:38

The original manuscript for Santa Lucia for Piano.

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Re: Santa Lucia (Genos 2)

Postby JamesT3 » 02 Jun 2024 18:40

Hello Hugh and Den,

My, you two have been busy! I really do appreciate your efforts. I’ve listened to all the recordings Hugh and can spot the differences. As I’ve mentioned previously, playing by ear I pick up on the main vocals when it’s a number being sung. Using my left hand for chords as best as I can.

Den, good of you to submit the sheet music but as I say, it’s impossible for me to make any sense of the dots as I have never taken to reading music.

I recall many years back, I spoke with a piano tutor who advised me against confusing matters by taking music lessons as I had programmed myself from age eleven, to play entirely by ear. She seemed to think it would clash with my capabilities playing by ear and trying to move over to the dots. I did try but I have never considered myself a pianist because of my left hand playing is so used to chords on a workstation or an arranger. I find it impossible to co ordinate playing left hand keys with right hand melody. I so admire players who can read and play from the sheets, especially when incorporating use of foot pedals either on piano or grand organs like the great Wurlitzer. So given my age now, I’m resigned to making the best as I can playing by ear. Just hope my hearing and memory stay intact!

But thank you guys for all your information.


Best wishes


James.
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Re: Santa Lucia (Genos 2)

Postby Hugh-AR » 02 Jun 2024 22:58

James,

We haven't finished yet! The trouble with the music that Den has put up for us is that it has no chord symbols written on it. And I agree with what your piano tutor said to you. I too don't 'read the dots', and 'play by ear'. When I look at those dots on the sheet music .. yes, I can laboriously work out the actual notes being played, but musically I don't reckon they mean much to someone who can only play by 'reading the dots'. They are just playing what they see in front of them. What I mean by that is that if they see the notes A, C, D and F# they are just notes that are being played. It takes a bit of thought for me to work out that that is a D7 chord. And I prefer to see the letters D7 in front of me to play the harmony .. which can involve any of those notes, in any order. If the notes were C#, F and A .. that would be more difficult for me. The harmony is F augmented (F+). Then there must be combinations of notes that don't give a 'harmony chord' as we know them. So this is where the sheet music player is one up on us.

So what I shall be doing next is analysing the notes from Den's music sheet and writing them as 'lettered chords' on that sheet that I have put up (ie. melody line and written chords as letters .. 'busker' type music). Then have a go at playing it myself.

One thing I have noticed straight away from Den's sheet music is that the basic melody 'repeats itself' .. and the first time round is using the standard 'basic' harmony; and the second time round it is replacing the basic chords with an A and a Dm (Den has indicated this on his sheet above). So this 'harmony change' only happens second time around. This has been done deliberately so the second time around the harmony comes as a sort of 'surprise' .. and gets your interest.

I shall be putting all this up when I've done it.

Hugh
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Re: Santa Lucia (Genos 2)

Postby Hugh-AR » 04 Jun 2024 00:31

James,

Den has already shown us where those two chords are that change the harmony of the piece (the A and the Dm) .. so I have added those in to that music script I posted above. But there is another chord that I think has quite an impact on how the piece sounds .. and this is an F# Diminished chord .. so I have added this into the sheet music as well .. in bar 19. It follows the F chord. Now this is not in Den's sheet music, but I could hear the change in harmony quite clearly in the YouTube version by Mario Lanza (above). Mind you, it took me a couple of hours to identify what that chord was that I was hearing!

Below is that 'Busker type' sheet music I put up earlier, with those alternative chords added in.

Do a right-click to open this up in a New Tab.
https://app.box.com/s/kljseiuip4jtikzy5cuwnssqxriw15of

Now James, as you play the melody 'by ear' I am not expecting you to 'read the dots'. Just count the three beats in each bar .. and play the chords as written on the sheet music.

This is what I have set up on my Tyros 4.

Style: GuitarSerenade from BALLAD, at 95bpm.
Left Hand Voice: AccompOoh
Right 1: ConcertGuitar
Right 2: BoysOoh, from CHOIR.

And I have set the HARMONY / ECHO on DUET .. only applied to R2. So this gives the 'Choir Harmony' singing notes 'higher' than the melody.

Listen to how this has all ended up by clicking on the below.



Hugh
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Re: Santa Lucia (Genos 2) - and a look at HARMONY

Postby kens » 04 Jun 2024 15:06

Hi
I am unnable to play without the full music score in front of me. So I envy you play by ear folks. However a piece of wisdom given by Byron Jones many yearas ago was use the written music as a guide and add your own interpretation. That way you can achieve your own idea of perfection. However bear in mind no two of us are the same. Ken S.
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Re: Santa Lucia (Genos 2) - and a look at HARMONY

Postby JamesT3 » 11 Jun 2024 14:31

QUOTE:
Hello James. Thank you for replying to my post. However, I would like to offer some advice? The human voice is mono, it has no harmony. So to get the melody, if you can pick it out from what someone purports to sing, then that’s OK; but the LEFT hand is the harmony. Without the correct chords then you have what I call pancake music. What you want is SOUP-A music. Get the sheet music and look at the chords written. Generally C, G7 and F. Most music follows the standard chord progressions as per the circle of fifths. All the chords are shown on your Genos. Go to Menu 2 touch the chord tutor and they are all there. It does not take long to get the chords for most music as there are only 3 or maybe 4 chords in the whole piece. Of course this does not apply to more advance scripts.
So, play your chords counting the bars and then put your melody onto that.

Hello Den,

As I have pointed out in my profile and in several postings, I play entirely by ear. What I hear, I try to play. I’ve never considered myself as a professional musician by any means but certainly semi-pro. I have never read music and will never attempt to read it as it simply makes no sense to me. In fact, trying to read the dots just leads to total confusion as playing by ear is completely different. I pick up chords by ear. I can play in different keys but my preference has always been in the key of C.

We all hear things differently. Sometimes I will listen to a piece of music several times and break it down. I’ll often use software which separates sounds from voices and instruments and I look to finding the nearest match on the keyboard. Sometimes involving multi track recording. My method is to find a suitable rhythm/style, then the chords and then play the melody. Often I’ll listen to some music and play along with it playing the exact keys that are being performed on the original music. It’s very trial and error. There are many difficult numbers I would love to be able to play but struggle with due to the complexity of the piece. Classical music in particular. But I put that down to the fact that I know I am not a pianist hence why I play arrangers and workstations. As a youngster, starting off on a piano, I would vamp too much with my left hand so I moved to the organ when I discovered playing chords albeit the easier way.

I am aware of harmonising and not sure that to describe this piece I'm performing as ‘pancake’ is a little bit harsh. It’s obviously a difference of opinion. I fully understand that a professional keyboard player would identify the difference in players playing by ear to those who read music professionally. I get that. And I truly admire those who can play from the dots in an exceptional way. I don’t proclaim to be able to match such professionalism but being self taught since the age of eleven, I have had years of positive audience reactions to my performances. I, like many of us, are always open to criticism to help improve our playing but one needs to be aware that I don’t proclaim to be professional.

I hope my response does not come across as offensive in any way, I just feel I needed to clarify my position when I play and post my performances that I play as best as what I can hear.

Kindest regards

James.
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Re: Santa Lucia (Genos 2) - and a look at HARMONY

Postby dentyr » 12 Jun 2024 00:21

Hello James, Take your point. As I have said before, "if we all had to play the same we would still be playing as that in the 12th century". As they say in AFL "Play on"
Den. :)
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